Comments on: The Money Game: Bundesliga 2008/2009 Financial Results http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html News from The German Bundesliga Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:54:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Tomas http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8504 Tomas Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:07:23 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8504 Well for a quick answer, anytime you have massive amounts of debt you will be unstable. Even with positive forecasting... anything can derail that. Now with the economy in its situation, this will just add to the problem. Even when you have owners like Roman Abrahmovic and the middle eastern contingency of Man City who can pour millions into a club, sooner or later it comes a time when they lose interest and try to sell off. Hopefully this wont happen because as much as I despise clubs like Man City, Chelsea and Manu, I dont want them to disappear into lower leagues let alone disappear completely. However I am so much looking forward to getting our 4th seed back into CL! Its just too bad we arent taking it from the EPL instead of SerieA. Well for a quick answer, anytime you have massive amounts of debt you will be unstable. Even with positive forecasting… anything can derail that. Now with the economy in its situation, this will just add to the problem. Even when you have owners like Roman Abrahmovic and the middle eastern contingency of Man City who can pour millions into a club, sooner or later it comes a time when they lose interest and try to sell off. Hopefully this wont happen because as much as I despise clubs like Man City, Chelsea and Manu, I dont want them to disappear into lower leagues let alone disappear completely. However I am so much looking forward to getting our 4th seed back into CL! Its just too bad we arent taking it from the EPL instead of SerieA.

]]> By: ED http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8464 ED Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:29:49 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8464 Wasn't it Valencia that still had problems this year in just meeting their payroll? And left their players unpaid for long stretches? Why aren't there regulations against that kind of stuff and why is it allowed to go on and on for many months! The Bundesliga does have the most teams in the top 12 for attendance average which is a pretty imppresive feat in itself. Wasn’t it Valencia that still had problems this year in just meeting their payroll? And left their players unpaid for long stretches? Why aren’t there regulations against that kind of stuff and why is it allowed to go on and on for many months!

The Bundesliga does have the most teams in the top 12 for attendance average which is a pretty imppresive feat in itself.

]]> By: Jan http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8446 Jan Tue, 02 Feb 2010 06:38:32 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8446 I don't know really. But generally: there is a consistent level of doom mongering when it comes to football finances, but the actual amount of doom is always rather low. Football clubs are like banks, the big ones are too big to go down or to get punished for their sins and excesses. Just pointing fingers at clubs with debts is a bit too simple as well. As long as you can service the debts there's no problem and you can run a sustainable football club, despite huge debts. Also, a club could have €300m declared as debts, but if this money was lent to the club in form of an interest free loan without a specific due date, then the danger for the club is rather theoretical. See Chelsea, where Abramovich converted his interest free loans into equity just like that and wiped out all debts. So equalling high debts with low financial stability isn't necessarily true. There are a lot of unsustainable clubs in Europe of course. But some enjoy the benefit of a rich benefactor, who is willing to pay the bills. Others are in trouble. In the end, the Bundesliga shouldn't hope or wait for somebody else to go bankrupt. That's maybe Uli Hoeness' wet dream. UEFA's plans in terms of club licensing and forcing financial sustainability onto clubs should enhance the Bundesliga's financial competitiveness though. Especially compared to Spain and Italy. The EPL is still generating several hundred million Euros more each year. That's something where the Bundesliga needs to find new revenue streams to catch up and rely on good youth development and clever scouting in the meantime. I don’t know really. But generally: there is a consistent level of doom mongering when it comes to football finances, but the actual amount of doom is always rather low. Football clubs are like banks, the big ones are too big to go down or to get punished for their sins and excesses.

Just pointing fingers at clubs with debts is a bit too simple as well. As long as you can service the debts there’s no problem and you can run a sustainable football club, despite huge debts. Also, a club could have €300m declared as debts, but if this money was lent to the club in form of an interest free loan without a specific due date, then the danger for the club is rather theoretical. See Chelsea, where Abramovich converted his interest free loans into equity just like that and wiped out all debts.

So equalling high debts with low financial stability isn’t necessarily true.

There are a lot of unsustainable clubs in Europe of course. But some enjoy the benefit of a rich benefactor, who is willing to pay the bills. Others are in trouble. In the end, the Bundesliga shouldn’t hope or wait for somebody else to go bankrupt. That’s maybe Uli Hoeness’ wet dream. UEFA’s plans in terms of club licensing and forcing financial sustainability onto clubs should enhance the Bundesliga’s financial competitiveness though. Especially compared to Spain and Italy. The EPL is still generating several hundred million Euros more each year. That’s something where the Bundesliga needs to find new revenue streams to catch up and rely on good youth development and clever scouting in the meantime.

]]> By: Pete http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8442 Pete Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:31:44 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8442 Any idea how this compares to other leagues? Not necessarily just raw profit/loss but stability wise too? Is the Bundesliga in better shape than say EPL in some respects with so many clubs taking on a ton of debt- Any idea how this compares to other leagues? Not necessarily just raw profit/loss but stability wise too? Is the Bundesliga in better shape than say EPL in some respects with so many clubs taking on a ton of debt-

]]> By: Jan http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8415 Jan Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:26:00 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8415 @Paul: Actually, I doubt that Spanish teams have significantly higher matchday revenue. Except for Barcelona and Real Madrid that is. Here is an example from the 2006/2007 season: Valencia averaged over 41000 in 19 home matches in the league and played six CL home games and generated matchday revenues of €24.5m. Bremen averaged over 42000 in 17 home matches in the league, played three CL home games + 4 UC games and generated matchday revenues of €22.4m (source: Deloitte Football Money League 2008). That's not a big difference at all. Now, one reason could be that the big two in Spain can afford to charge very high prices and in return also lift the average of the rest of the league. Another very likely reason is the lack of VIP boxes and business seats in Spanish stadiums or the fact that Spanish clubs can only charge significantly less for these premium seats than Bundesliga clubs. Because VIPs contribute a considerable amount to a Bundesliga club's matchday revenue these days and the majority of Bundesliga clubs have a stadium with a high amount of VIP boxes and business seats. Still, charging more for a ticket is certainly one way for Bundesliga clubs to increase revenues. But you need to find a way to communicate it to the fans. E.g. Cologne has significantly raised ticket prices this season under the premise that the club will use the extra cash to finance players like Podolski. That worked like a charm. Average attendance is only marginally down and that's mostly down to fewer fans from the visiting teams. But in the current economic climate with unemployment predicted to rise this year, it would be difficult to sell a significant rise in ticket prices to the fans. @Paul: Actually, I doubt that Spanish teams have significantly higher matchday revenue. Except for Barcelona and Real Madrid that is.

Here is an example from the 2006/2007 season:

Valencia averaged over 41000 in 19 home matches in the league and played six CL home games and generated matchday revenues of €24.5m.
Bremen averaged over 42000 in 17 home matches in the league, played three CL home games + 4 UC games and generated matchday revenues of €22.4m (source: Deloitte Football Money League 2008).

That’s not a big difference at all.

Now, one reason could be that the big two in Spain can afford to charge very high prices and in return also lift the average of the rest of the league. Another very likely reason is the lack of VIP boxes and business seats in Spanish stadiums or the fact that Spanish clubs can only charge significantly less for these premium seats than Bundesliga clubs. Because VIPs contribute a considerable amount to a Bundesliga club’s matchday revenue these days and the majority of Bundesliga clubs have a stadium with a high amount of VIP boxes and business seats.

Still, charging more for a ticket is certainly one way for Bundesliga clubs to increase revenues. But you need to find a way to communicate it to the fans. E.g. Cologne has significantly raised ticket prices this season under the premise that the club will use the extra cash to finance players like Podolski. That worked like a charm. Average attendance is only marginally down and that’s mostly down to fewer fans from the visiting teams. But in the current economic climate with unemployment predicted to rise this year, it would be difficult to sell a significant rise in ticket prices to the fans.

]]> By: Paul http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8414 Paul Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:40:31 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8414 The ticket price comparison is interesting. The Spanish League has prices twice as high as the Bundesliga but not half as many spectators. So they are making more money from the fans overall than in the Bundesliga. While I think it is great that it is so cheap to see the football here, maybe if teams charged €40 a ticket they could afford more top quality players? What's the price of a regular type ticket in Munich? In Berlin it is €20 or €22. The ticket price comparison is interesting. The Spanish League has prices twice as high as the Bundesliga but not half as many spectators. So they are making more money from the fans overall than in the Bundesliga. While I think it is great that it is so cheap to see the football here, maybe if teams charged €40 a ticket they could afford more top quality players?

What’s the price of a regular type ticket in Munich? In Berlin it is €20 or €22.

]]> By: Luka http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8413 Luka Fri, 29 Jan 2010 08:36:09 +0000 http://bundesliga.theoffside.com/facts-and-figures/the-money-game-bundesliga-20082009-financial-results.html#comment-8413 Great summary. Great summary.

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